K: Danielle, when I first discovered your work, and your music I immediately fell in love with it. Yet its only been for the past couple of weeks that I am finding out so much more about you and am amazed - there is so much to discover and it doesn't seem to have an end to it. You've done so much- you've even been co-founder of love parade. And being German I kind of feel I should have known about you much earlier! ( laughter)
D: I don't know if you were in Berlin very often in the 80's, but there was always this thing about that they didn't want people to take pictures in the club, they did not want to be filmed; everything had to be UNDERGROUND. So hardly anything got documented and that's why somehow - unless you were constantly performing and touring which I wasn't back then, things stayed secret. There's a big techno film that just came out last week.
K: Yes, about "The Tresor".
D: It was really funny because people who were making the movie were desperate because they couldn't find any material, as nobody was able to document anything. Clubs always forbid anybody to come in and I was mainly working in clubs, doing installations, fashion shows, music - I was doing all kinds of events, but nobody was allowed to take pictures or recordings, because all these clubs were illegal. So outside of Berlin people did not know unless you were touring. And for a long time I was only in Berlin, I didn't feel like touring.
K: Where did you live in Berlin in the 80's?
D: I was living in West Berlin, in Kreuzberg, actually right next to the AXEL-SPRINGER-HAUS. Right in front of the wall, together with my boyfriend at the time, Dr. Motte. Our apartment looked exactly over the wall, so we were just there with the view into East Berlin for at least 6 years.
K: That fits your melancholic vision very well.
D: Ja. I liked it because I grew up in New York, and I was used to danger. When I was studying I had people that were shot. So when I came to Berlin, I liked the fact of being able to see the situation. I like situations better that you can see instead of being hidden, so I liked living beside the wall and being confronted with the situation that was there instead of pretending it didn't exist. I mean I didn't t like the political situation, but I liked being able to see it.
K: Let's talk about your last project: "The Ship of Fools".
D: I actually discovered this book by Michel Foucault: "Madness and Civilization" in a bookstore last time I was in London, in 2005. It is a fantastic book about the development of madness and our civilization, how it was perceived from the beginning. It talks about, how madmen were considered wise and through time they became considered crazy, and how this development happened. Foucault kept on mentioning another book 'The Ship of Fools' (1494 by Sebastian Brant), and I got that one too, and I was fascinated and immediately inspired to do a show about it. Then Alexander and I started reading the chapters, thinking of which fool would be the best to portrait, like the most interesting and contemporary ones.
K: How many fools are there all together in the book?
D: In the book I think there are114 fools.
K: And you picked 11?
D: Yes, we picked 11, and it was such a great work, that we could have gone on forever, cause as soon as you start working with these themes, there is no end to it. We would google them and find all the different things in philosophy and religion, colors, and music. So one day for example we would work on the angry fool, we would gather information and speak about what we think is interesting about this character, start writing notes and then Alex would start writing the music and I would start drawing or painting. We were working together in one room, all the time - a constant exchange.
K: Wonderful.
D: JA, it was great. When being in Berlin we are always too busy, working, the phone ringing, people coming by... So we decided to go to Canada for 2 months (on an art farm of friends), and work on this project, completely isolated. This way we were able to finish it in 2 months, otherwise it would have taken at least a year. When we came back to Berlin we just mixed everything and where able to perform it twice right away.
One of the reasons why we did this piece is that it's a nice mix of culture, art, politics and sociology. First of all, when I read the book, I identified with every single fool. I was like " oh my God - I m a total fool! (Laughter) and it makes you think about yourself, like how do I react to life, and - of course - Alex had the same reaction. It was interesting because we spoke about how, for instance, he sees greed, one of the fools, and how I see greed. We had different opinions, him being a man and me, a woman; all these different discussions were fascinating, just so limitless. And once in a while it is nice to make a statement as an artist, considering what one thinks about the world, not morally, just personal, and how we try to get along in the world, do something positive, or where we see our failures, or where we are weak - all these things. It's just really a kind of an endless nice strain of thoughts that goes along with it.
K: What's your favorite fool?
D: My favorite fool... mm
K: Might be a foolish question, but...
D: (laughter)
K: I was just wondering whether you associate with one character the most?
D: It's difficult, I kind of associate with all of them. I like the one where the women are dancing burlesque! It was very difficult for me to find out why this is considered so foolish. The fact that women should not be too sexual, or too wild, or too this and that, is in a way still the case nowadays, and sexuality still being kind of a taboo-theme, although it is so much in the newspapers and advertisement. And I love painting these women who are not scared, doing their thing, the ones who are outsiders and outcasts. They still have a difficult time nowadays.
K: Yes.
D: I also like the dancing theme very much: why is dancing considered foolish? I never really had much to do with dancing before, but through reading this book I got into the whole theme from a different aspect. It opened a world for me. I started thinking about dance in general, about this whole art form that I had basically ignored before. Now I am suddenly working with dancers.
Also, politically or ecologically I was thinking a lot - as probably everyone last year - about global warming. And how can I as an artist do anything at all to make a difference or in anyway show that I am actually thinking about it, and not only about the next painting? The last chapter with the 'tiki' chapters, very nice and sweet, is actually meant very seriously in that way.
Another reason why we did this project is because it has so many different aspects creatively.
I often get asked, what is your real art, is it the drawing, the painting or the music? And I've always said everything is for me. I've started to play instruments when I was 4, and I was always drawing, I was always doing all of these things, I cannot separate it. If I do one I have the feeling I have to express it in another art form at the same time, because for me each art form is only one way of expressing.
And for Alexander, musically it's very much the same - having the possibility of writing and working different styles of music within one project. Because he plays NEUBAUTEN, but on the other hand he also had a country band, he did the project with the Turkish filmmaker, and he loves rockabilly, so through these fools we could show how all of our different talents fit together, and that it is one picture with different colors lets say.
K: It also seems like another metaphor for the fools, once you start describing one, there are all of them.
D: Exactly.
K: That way you can hardly even separate them. One has the part of the other, and they are all connected within themselves, like same with the arts I think, so it really closes a circle.
D: Yes- perfect, it's almost like a body: my painting is one hand and the music is the other hand.
K: So you started your first instrument when you were 4?
D: Yes, I started playing piano when I was 4, and then violin when I was 9 I think, it just was from the beginning. Everything was so automatic, I didn't even think. Like I was accepted in art school although I didn't apply - it was kind of funny. I did not know what I wanted to do after school. I didn't even think that art could be my profession. I was just doing it all the time and then a friend of mine said I'm going to apply at art school, and asked me whether I wanted to come along, and by chance they saw my sketches and they accepted me, and not her, so suddenly I was in an art school!
K: I know! I read this somewhere and I was like - what happened!
D: Yeah, it was very strange, but I thought, ok, then this is what I'm meant to do.
K: Imagine how many people fight for it! I guess if its supposed to come to you then...
D: Totally, I believe very much in life leading you where it wants you to be, so...
K: ...Don't fight it.
D: Ja, like when I came to Berlin I had actually only planned to be there for 2 weeks.
K: Really?
D: Ja - I went to visit a friend, and then go back to New York and I've been here ever since.
K: So you mainly grew up in New York, but you also kept traveling with your parents?
D: My father was in the army, so we traveled around a lot.
K: What I also liked when I read more about your story are the kind of books you read as a child, like Edgar Allan Poe, because you were kind of isolated, like with your Italian name in the States, and constantly moving, so you've found your own little world, which must have influenced you on top of it?
D: Absolutely. I was raised with 3 languages, my first language was French, and I only learned English when I went to kinder garden. So because of that, I had language problems at the beginning. Even though I was born in the States, I still spoke mainly French in the beginning. That was a problem, and my mother didn't believe in Television, and all those typical American cultural things, so I wasn't allowed to watch TV for a long time. I had a lot of problems communicating with people in school. Also she would dress me in traditional German dirndls...
K: You are kidding me!
D: Yeah! And I was very short sided, so I was wearing the big, big glasses, I was like the total...
K: NERD!
D: Nerd, just like horrible! I just felt terrible until I came to Berlin actually. I always felt completely out of taste everywhere.
K: (Laughter)
D: Terrible ( more laughter)
K: She didn't make it easy for you.
D: It was really bad - my childhood was a nightmare. So the only thing I could actually do was reading all the time. Every time I would come to a new school, I would start reading the books from A to Z. So I did not have to deal with people. So that was pretty bad. And then when I came to Berlin in the 80's I was like - oh my God, this is a city completely full of people that don't fit in anywhere else too, so for the first time in my life I felt ok. That's why I stayed.
K: Again, it's like you became part of that ship of fools.
D: Exactly! I think that's one of the reasons too why the whole creative thing became so important, because for a very, very long time, before I came to Berlin, I had the feeling that the only way I could actually communicate with people is through my art, so as long as they don't look at me, its ok. If they see my art then its ok, we can communicate; then it wouldn't have that much to do with me. (Laughter) So art is definitely means of communication for me.
K: Well I suppose it has changed a little bit so you allow people now to see you as well as your art?
D: Ja, but for instance - I moved to Berlin in 85, and in 95 I had my apartment burned down.
K: What?
D: I'm just saying that because until 95 I always wore wigs, and I always looked completely different than I actually looked, because - I was still hiding myself. I felt so much of an alien. So when my apartment burned down all my wigs were burned. So after that it was the first time that I actually completely let the world see me the way I am.
K: How beautiful. That burn had to happen!
D: Yes!
K: That was good!
D: Yes! So it was kind of like a fairytale. Before and after that fire I became...I became like a real human person. (Laughter) So all of these things are portrayed in my art. For a longtime I painted women with closed eyes, or the whole tattoos, the way of covering up the skin, all these themes are part of what I do and part of all this hiding, and as you say, the ship of fools. I can completely identify with in every way!
K: Do you have a new project in mind already?
D: Yes, I don t think I can really speak about it yet, but in general I can say that the 'ship of fools' project seemed like a kind of test and it has worked. So basically our future project is going be along that line; we've found a medium in which we can both present our different possibilities.
K: And you have been cooperating with other artists for many years, as well as organizing exhibitions.
D: I've always been interested in meeting other artists or doing co-operations with other people, especially things that are kind of contradictory or that create clashes. So for years I organized events with all kinds of different people, like DJ's, musicians and artists. And lately, together with Alex, we've tried to work with different cultures, to do residencies in different countries, with a very different kind of cultural heritage in sounds, rhythms or artistic things, and interact together. And that's what we are going to be doing in the future with the "ship of fools". For instance, in October we are going to perform it in Prague, with a Czech reader reading instead of us, and musicians participating in certain chapters, so we can integrate these different cultures. And in that way show how universal the ship of fools is too. That's something that's really important - to me; I love that kind of exchange.
K: Are you also adding other fools or are you keeping the same ones?
D: We keep the same fools, but for instance we are going to invite people to participate in the oriental thing with percussion, and we are going to ask in the Burlesque scene for somebody to play a dirty trumpet (laughter)
K: Great. Are you also changing certain visuals, which one would film while being there, or do you keep the same ones, and just have the people as the interaction of exchange of culture?
D: The visuals basically stay the same, but I've been thinking about finding people in the different places, to add an extra screen, and an extra monitor, and to have an extra person projecting things that would fit to the scene, which of course is a lot more work than it is as a musician improvising.
K: I am sure you have already other countries in mind that you are approaching?
D: Yes. This way of integrating all the different things that we are interested in is perfect because its flexible, we can do it in different countries, with different languages, we can invite different speakers, we can integrate other artists, and kind of make things happen, so yes- I m really happy having found this medium of how to work in the future. The new piece that we re planning isn't going to have as much text, its not based on a book, but - the basic side of presenting all these different art forms is going to be the way we will be working for the next couple of years.